Democraten-66
is a social-liberal and progressive party in the Netherlands with representation
both in the national parliament, and the European Parliament. It supported
ratification of the Association Agreement between the EU and Ukraine, as well
as the Advisory Referendum Act earlier.
It is within the latter’s framework
that the Netherlands will have the referendum on association with Ukraine on
April 6. Now, the party is actively involved in a Yes campaign in support of
the parliament’s decision to ratify the association.
Last week, Alexander
Pechtold, parliamentary leader of D66 in the House of Representatives, and Kees
Verhoeven, member
and campaigner for the party, visited Ukraine to meet with local politicians,
experts and activists.
The Ukrainian Week asked
them what voters in the Netherlands know about Ukraine, the motives of the
Association Agreement opponents, and whether there is a chance to change the
current balance of votes for and against it.
How do the Dutch perceive Ukraine?
Alexander
Pechtold: The summer of MH17 made many Dutch people aware that there is
Ukraine, earlier perceived as just one of those former soviet republics. Prior
to that, there had been far less awareness of our relations. Few people know,
for instance, that Ukraine is bigger than France. Since people in the
Netherlands don’t know much about Ukraine, they perceive it neutrally.
They
have worries, but those are not specifically about Ukraine. Rather, they are
about Eastern European countries in general, about corruption. There is
actually strong focus on that in the Netherlands now, as the campaign is
starting: in the No camp they say that it’s a different mentality which we
don’t need. That it’s black and white choosing between Moscow and Kyiv.
In my party,
the Yes camp, we are trying to provide more arguments.
How is Russia seen then?
A.P.: In the
Netherlands, more and more people are becoming aware of the role Moscow is
playing internationally – in Syria, and countries like Ukraine. Also, the
awareness of things like energy is growing. We know that unless we switch to
sustainable energy, we will be taken hostage by Mr. Putin or the Arabs with
their oil.
We make plans
about switching to renewable energy, but plans are on paper, and so they are
left to wait. I’m not happy with the steps we are taking in that regard.
After a couple of days in Ukraine, what would you tell about the country
back in your country?
A.P.: For me,
it’s really a fact finding mission. We spoke to many politicians, as well as
prime minister and president. We also spoke to NGOs, people on the Maidan
square. And we learned a lot about their position towards the Agreement on
which the referendum will be held. It’s not about becoming member of the EU or
money. They tell us that they want to keep up with European values and
standards.
Kees
Verhoeven: These days around especially the younger people from NGOs,
Parliament, have shown that they are really looking for change, and they say
it’s an irreversible process; that they don’t want to go back to Soviet times,
but towards Western values. They are really fighting for that. They really seek
change. That impressed me a lot. I think it is important to show in the
campaign in the Netherlands the will of Ukrainian people to finally break
through corruption, change old institutions into new ones, and gain a new level
of freedom.
A.P.: Maybe we
focus too much on corruption. Meanwhile, there are also positive things that we
can talk about as well. Also, the fact that one can talk about corruption and
steps to be taken about it with politicians so openly is something that is
missing in a lot of countries where you can’t even tell the word to politicians
face to face because it is seen as something impolite.
What would you expect Ukrainians to show or say in order to persuade the
Dutch to not fear association and free trade with Ukraine as something hostile?
What arguments would you need from us to boost the Yes campaign in the
Netherlands?
K.V.:
Ukrainians can say that the Association Agreement is a way for Europe to help
them in improving the situation, modernizing their institutions, fighting
corruption, dealing with human rights issues, treatment of minorities. They
only have to tell the Dutch people that they are really looking for change and
are ready for democracy. That it’s not something we want them to have, but they
want to have it themselves. And if they can convince us, they can also convince
more people in the Netherlands with their passion and struggle to make their
lives freer, better, with more opportunities to do what they love to do. Those
are the things that should be communicated to the Dutch people.
A.P.: And
personal stories. Referenda in the Netherlands are all about diplomats and
politicians, the voters are fed up with that. But when it’s about personal
stories, it’s a different matter.
Do you have any specific steps that you plan to take in the run-up to
the referendum?
K.V.: We are
having a website where we publish various facts. We are also going to show
young Ukrainian people, as well as our businessmen back in our country, who
tell us why it is so important for them to take steps provided for by the
Association Agreement.
We’ll show the
faces of the Ukrainian people in order to bring the country closer to the
Netherlands. There is distance, particularly the mental distance, but with
faces and stories of Ukrainian people you have a chance to overcome that gap.
Have you seen efforts on the Ukrainian side to explain themselves and
their country to the Dutch lately?
A.P.: The two
people the Dutch associate with your country are Victoria Koblenko, a
well-known actress, and Yevhen Levchenko, a football player, both from Ukraine.
But the way
your President showed compassion about what happened after MH17 – when he came
to our Embassy, knelt down and prayed - that is seen in the Netherlands. It’s
felt.
Ukrainians tend to think that the reason for which the referendum is
taking place in April is more about Euroskepticism than it is about Ukraine. Is
that true?
Yes. The new
Dutch referendum law (Advisory Referendum Act – Ed.) that
makes referenda possible in the Netherlands came into effect in July 2015.
Those who are skeptical about the EU or against it were simply seeking the
first opportunity to have referendum about. It needs to be something that the
Parliament took decision on. And the first such thing turned out to be the
Association Agreement with Ukraine. Our Parliament voted on it. That’s why they
initiated the referendum on this topic. In a way, Ukraine could in this case be
seen as a victim of selective choice. This is sad.
How would you describe the voters who are anti-Association Agreement?
These are
first of all people who are fed up with the EU. They believe that the EU only
does bad things without listening to ordinary people and takes decisions
without knowing what effect they will have. There is also a group that has a
conspiracy feeling about the EU.
One has to
listen to these sentiments and think about whether it is acceptable for the EU
to take so many decisions. On the other hand, however, we have the European
Parliament elected by the Dutch people. We have national leaders who are in
very influential positions at the European Council and can look at things from
the perspective of benefits for the Netherlands.
There is also
a group of people who are afraid of what’s happening in the world, terrorists
blowing up people in Paris and elsewhere, lots of refugees coming to Europe,
geopolitical tensions close to the EU borders. So, many think: let’s go back to
national controls. That will keep us safe; we know each other, we have
influence, we are comparable people. We don’t have anything to do with Ukraine
or other places in the world. And those people are just afraid – of Ukraine as
well, as a country they don’t know.
Still, a lot
of people are undecided. They are still thinking about whether they will vote,
and maybe it’s better to stay at home and abstain. We have two messages to
them: go and vote on April 6. Don’t think that it may be better to stay at home
because as a result the referendum may have a turnout lower than 30%, the
amount necessary for the valid outcome. And, secondly, if you’re going to vote,
please inform yourself about what the facts of the Agreement are, and what the
myths are.
That’s something we as a party should facilitate: that people know
what it’s all about. That it’s not about the EU being good or bad; or about
leaving the EU, but about working together with Ukraine as a country on the
border of the EU, which has a lot of challenges for the future, and helping
them with the Association Agreement in not only trade, but in all sorts of
values – the rule of law, democracy, human rights. If we bring over that
message in a good way, it can be positive effect.
Do you think it’s possible to convince the undecided in the two months
left before the referendum?
It is. We were
at 29% of those supporting association against 56% who opposed it in December.
About two weeks ago, a poll in our biggest newspaper said that the yes camp
went up to 40% against 60% of the opponents. Another finding was that there is
a big group – 1/3 of all voters - of the undecided. They are open for
information. And they are perceptive to new arguments.
Why did you decide to join this Yes campaign?
Our party is
pro-referenda. And if your party is one of the forces that supported the law on
referendum, then you should never be quiet in the first referendum.
Then, we are a
pro-European and international party. We think that isolation never makes
things better. So, we believe that cooperation with Ukraine is a good thing. We
believe that reforms and progress will take place here in the coming years.
Also, we voted for association with Ukraine in Parliament. If we did that, and
there is a referendum on that decision, we should go to the voters, talk to
them, and explain that, since we voted for it, we believe in it.
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