Roman Tsymbaliuk, Moscow
On the eve of the referendum
in the Netherlands on the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement, which is so
important for Ukraine, UNIAN interviewed a correspondent of Dutch television
broadcaster NOS David Godfroid.
On
April 6, a referendum will be held in the Netherlands in which the voters will
be offered to say Yes or No on the issue of ratification of the Ukraine-EU
Association Agreement. And the position of the whole European Union regarding
Ukraine’s European integration largely depends on the outcome of this vote.
An UNIAN correspondent sat down with the reporter from Dutch public
television, David Godfroid, to discuss the mood in Dutch society ahead of the
referendum. For many years, he has worked in Moscow, covering events in the
former Soviet Union, and personally visited Ukraine many times, reporting from
both Maidan protests of 2004 and 2014. He also worked in occupied Crimea and
Donbas. According to him, Ukraine has largely divided Dutch society, while his voting
forecast is not too optimistic. Although the matter is, rather, not in the
essence of the referendum, but in the growing Euroskepticism in the
Netherlands.
David, can you tell
us about the history of referenda in the Netherlands and why it is the only EU
country where the issue of Association with Ukraine has been submitted to a
popular vote?
The referendum law in Holland is still pretty young, and it was enforced
in 2015. So this [the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement] is the first subject.
By the way, it’s an advisory referendum, and the government is not obliged to
follow the outcome of the vote. But anyhow, there was a group of people who
initiated the referendum, and they admitted they are very much opposed to the
European Union as a whole, because they think it’s very undemocratic.
What
these people have been looking for a subject to fit their goal. And the
Association Agreement with Ukraine was actually the very first subject they ran
into, it could have been anything else when it comes to the European Union.
What they actually wanted was to put the question of whether the Netherlands
should leave the EU, but it’s not possible in a referendum. One can only ask
questions about laws or these kinds of agreements. The law requires 300,000
signatures for the government to organize a referendum, but by making a huge
campaign, with the support of one of Holland’s most popular websites, they
collected much more – nearly 450,000 signatures. So, the government was obliged
to set up a referendum, and that’s where we are now.
What is this Geenpeil group about, which initiated the referendum? Who
are these people?
Geenpeil are not the original initiators. There were a couple of
individuals, they cooperated with a different group – a Committee of Civilians,
then they founded it together with this website GeenStijl… Let’s say they are
all from a part of society which is very much opposed to the European Union and
the Dutch membership in it. The situation can be compared to that in the UK,
where there’s also a discussion and there’s going to be a referendum on EU
membership. But the Dutch law doesn’t allow for such kind of referendum, so
they decided to put to a vote the Ukrainian issue so that they could show that
they stand against the European Union’s policies.
This
group of people, this website started advocating that Ukraine is a poor and
corrupt country, and the assistance to Ukraine will cost taxpayers an awful lot
of money, and the Ukrainians will start coming in big numbers to Europe.
Moreover, by incorporating Ukraine into Europe (although it’s not membership
but they see it as such) we anger Russia.
And what does that
Dutch society know about the events in Ukraine, especially as regards the last
two years?
I always find it very difficult to say what the Dutch think about
anything. Let's see what the result of the referendum is. If it’s going to be
against the Association Agreement, it shows that a big part of the Dutch
population doesn’t have confidence in what’s going on in Ukraine, either or not
it is based on facts – that’s a different question.
I would say that the general feeling is not very positive about Ukraine.
Most people know that there was some kind of a revolution, the Maidan,
they know that there is something called Crimea that is now Russian, and they
know that there is something like a war going on in eastern Ukraine. But most
of all, they know that a passenger plane with a lot of Dutch people crashed in
eastern Ukraine.
It's very difficult for me to judge what general population thinks, and
it’s difficult to say how the people who have an opinion on Ukraine think:
whether their perception is based on facts, or on fears, or on propaganda.
In addition, it has been completely forgotten that Ukraine has a long
history of revolting already has a long history of protests and revolutions
against corruption, the oligarchs and nepotism in politics (as it was on the
Maidan in 2004). The opinion of many opponents of the EU-Ukraine Association is
that this has all been organized by the United States, by Soros, by God knows
who. It seems as if it was beaten into their heads. They say the problems they
see in Ukraine are caused first of all by the American influence and second of
all by this association agreement.
Do the Dutch people
understand that Ukraine is fighting Russia, and it was during the escalation of
hostilities when the MH17 was shot down, which killed the Dutch passengers?
Part of the Dutch population understands that Ukraine is at war with
Russia, but another part thinks that people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine
revolted against Maidan. You can still see in many Dutch publications that
there is a civil war instead of a war. As for the MH17, there has been a major
investigation by the Dutch Safety Board which was inconclusive about who did it.
You have repeatedly used the term
"propaganda." Who is doing this propaganda in the Netherlands?
Everyone. Both supporters and opponents of the Agreement on the
Ukraine-EU Association. What they come up with is extremely one-sided. The
opponents try to paint Ukraine as black as possible, the supporters try to
present Ukraine as some kind of heaven with only angels living there. There is
hardly any serious discussion going on about the advantages, the good sides, as
well as the disadvantages and the dangers of the agreement. Many tend to that
the Association automatically leads to Ukraine’s membership in the European
Union, which is not true.
So the supporters of Ukraine are cheering, saying that Ukraine should be
welcomed and that a “No” vote would mean supporting Putin – that’s the argument
they use the most. Meanwhile, the other side claims “there are fascists in
Ukraine.” This is not an argument, but it gives people a sense of fear. And
there is no exchange of ideas.
Six months ago nobody would have thought that the topic of the
Ukraine-EU Association Agreement would be discussed so actively in Holland.
Ukraine divided Dutch society, and the gap is very deep. In my opinion, it
shows that it’s more about the role of the European Union and the way the EU is
governed, and also the role the Dutch government plays in that than it’s
actually about the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement. We have a lot of
people thinking that our government accepts way too easy everything that comes
from Brussels.
Where does this
position of Ukraine as a "fascist state" come from? I think it's the
very wording of the Russian TV. Is it in fact the effect of Russian propaganda?
I think it’s clear that this idea originates in Russia. The fact is that
by the end of the Maidan, there were groups of people who expressed themselves
quite violently and also wouldn’t mind being connected to extreme right-wing
political ideas. But the original idea of stressing this without making a
nuance that this is actually a small part of the population is wrong. I’ve been
telling a hundred times on air speaking about Svoboda and Praviy Sector that
they are nothing to be afraid of, as they are not represented in Parliament,
they didn’t pass a threshold, and elections, as you know, is the real indicator
of public support. Of course, these things are very easy to use if you want to
make propaganda. It’s easy to understand that people are afraid of fascists and
then say "they [Ukrainians] are fascists." It’s as simple as that.
From your words, it turns out that Russia influences public opinion in
the Netherlands?
In a certain way, this is true. But it is also influenced by Brussels
and Washington. And it all comes down to this very strange referendum. And I
think that the outcome will be that the majority of Dutch people will vote
against the Association Agreement...
Could Ukraine also
influence public opinion in your country?
I don’t think so. In my opinion, the most stupid things Poroshenko could
have done was stressing that the Association Agreement is the first step toward
EU membership. He should have never said that. Although, when he was in the Netherlands,
he didn’t say it. It’s not the question either or not Ukraine is going to be
eventually a member of the European Union. But everybody who is against the
Agreement says that this is a step toward full membership, then we will get a
second Greece: there will be corruption, they will ask for millions and
millions from our budget, from our taxpayers, and we are the ones who are going
to suffer.
If your forecast
comes true and the outcome of the referendum is negative, what will be the
consequences for the EU-Ukraine Agreement given the fact that this is a
non-binding referendum?
This is a difficult question, and I don’t have the answer. If the result
is negative, the Dutch government will push for changes in the Agreement within
the European Union to kind of pacify part of the people who are against it. For
example, many people are supporting military cooperation with Ukraine, and many
are against it. Such paragraphs can be deleted from the Association Agreement.
It can go any direction. They can say that they take it as an advice but
considering all the circumstances, they’ll say they are still going to ratify
it. There will be huge pressure from Brussels to do so.
However, the coalition parties in the Netherlands know pretty well that if they
despise a No vote and ratify the Association Agreement, that’s going to cost
them at the next elections a lot.
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